I recently heard of a young couple who left their church to attend another church that had better children's ministry. That got me started thinking about following Jesus and about the church. For the past twenty years I have been involved with church planting in one capacity or another. For years the "experts" stressed a high quality children's ministry, a really cool youth ministry, and a high energy adult service with cutting edge "worship" as the best way to grow a church rapidly. And you know what? It really did work!
Yet I am wondering if perhaps we didn't miss something. We have created a generation of church attenders that are little more than consumers. Church is the commodity and we attempt to entice them with the promise of a superior product. We have dynamic ministry programs! We are the coolest! (Well...we wouldn't say so but deep inside that it is what we think.) Our kids ministry rocks! And so we present church as a commodity that adds value to your life or to your kid's lives.
I am not sure that Jesus was cool...or cutting edge. We do read of His children's ministry - He took time in the midst of an all important discourse about divorce to hold and bless the children. He didn't mind the interuption. In fact, He became angry with those who attempted to shoo the children away. I can't really find any cool ministry programs He instituted. Jesus did heal the sick, give the sinners hope, and proclaimed the good news that the realm of God was here on earth now.
Might it be that we have substituted dynamic programs for the power of God? Might it be that the kingdom of God is not about cool or cutting edge? Are we simply entertaining and being entertained, seeing who can draw the largest crowd? Where is the power to heal the sick? Where is the power to transfrom lives and bring wholeness?
13 comments:
..do we throw out the programs? Do we not have a childrens ministry? Do we stop the events for the youth?
Is it all for entertainment value? Is there a balance? Why did Jesus use parable's? It was a teaching tool that drew in the listener to the point he was making. If the message is drowned out by fluff then the programs are of no use. How do you use the gifts God has given us for his glory? whether acting, music, dance, poetry, sporting ability, etc. The problem is we lose focus on what we are meant to do. (spread the news)bringing glory to God...so back to my question. Do we just drop everything? Do we point out all the flaws in our christiandom? Do we help others stay focused on our mission as a body of christ? Do we build up? Do we break apart? All the programs and events are not the problem...it's the heart of the people and what they are looking for.
matt w.
No I don't think we have to drop everything. However when the programs etc replace God, then they become idolatry. Based on the example we see in scripture, we can expect God to take aim at our idols. We don't have to drop everything but He make take everything!
I am not talking about using or not using your gifts for God's glory...that needs to happen. However to assume that our church events are the sole place to do something for God's glory is to miss the point. Dancers can/should dance for God in a "secular" dance recital. Actors can/should act for God in the theater. Singers can/should sing for God in the coffee house or the bar. Everything we do should be done unto Him!
I do believe that we have used things/programs in a way that many Christians have a consumer mindset when it comes to church. Feed me...nurture me...make me feel good. We expect the church to train our kids. We expect the pastor to tell us what the Bible says.
Anyway...you had some good thoughts
Oh...I did want comment on your last line that you wrote and forgot to. Here is what you said:
All the programs and events are not the problem...it's the heart of the people and what they are looking for.
While that statement sounds logical at first glance, it does not really hold up under scrutiny. If we use this logic across the board, it doesn't make sense. I would never say to a person who struggles with alcohol "alcohol is not the problem , it is your heart(which would be a true statement). I am going to continue to serve you alchohol because alcohol is not the problem."
If someone has a destructive addictive behavior, we work with God at transforming the heart. However we also remove the thing that is strengthens and validates the destructive behavior. If I willingly give a person what they are looking for when I know it will strengthen the problem in their heart, then I do not truly love them.
When do you know God has taken them? Or is it that things fall apart because of our own failures? When do you rebuild with a humble heart? Jesus fed the 5000 knowing that a lot of them were there, not for the right reasons (but) he still ran his program. :-)
matt w.
so you know all the hearts of people? what they want? you lost me?
matt w.
Good dialogue...I enjoy good conversation! Let me answer your questions in both posts. you said:
When do you know God has taken them? Or is it that things fall apart because of our own failures? When do you rebuild with a humble heart? Jesus fed the 5000 knowing that a lot of them were there, not for the right reasons (but) he still ran his program. :-)
I don't think that it makes any differance whether God intervenes or things fall apart because of our failures. Both are evidence of what "really was". However, to rebuild what gave us the failures is a rather frightning thought is it not?
I think that Jesus fed the 5000 because he deeply cared for the people and reacted to their plight. Our focus should be the same - to work with God in His interaction with people, to have the same compassion on the hungry, the sick, and the weak.
In your second post you wrote:
so you know all the hearts of people? what they want? you lost me?
I certainly don't know the hearts of all people. However it is rather easy to see the state of the heart by simply watching actions...by watching to what people cling and how they react in a crisis. What is...is. Followers of Jesus invite the exposure of the heart. (Blessed are the pure in heart).
so if I get the idea to make a knife because it is beneficial for me. hunting, cutting branches for shelter, etc. Then someday I am angry with a friend and I stab him. At that point do I never pick up a knife again? Or do I examine where my heart is? The man who invented dynamite had peaceful purposes for it. Removing large amounts of rock for construction. People with the wrong focus use it to kill. Should the people who want to build be denied the dynamite because of the people who use it for wrong? I would never want to go down the same road. Rebuild the same thing. Knowing the pitfalls of programs, etc gives the wisdom to cling closer to the father and ask him to hold us by the hand in all we do. Does this guarantee being full proof in our programs, etc. Nope. We will fail someplace down the road..but not using the gifts God gives us to the fullest seems to be a waste. Maybe the question should'nt just be "do you feel God calling you to do this? But, also "what is your plan to keep the focus on God? Who is going to hold you accountable to this?" Programs, etc don't fix anything. God does. Programs are a way to reach out to the hurting, hungry, lost.
and it makes a huge difference on how things fell apart. it matters to God. Not to condemn. But to gain wisdom from our mistakes and rebuild with love. there are the sins of commission and omission. Both sins but need to be addressed differently. Pride with one and ignorance with the other. How we come to the father is different in the fact that the one type we knew what we did...didn't care and did it anyhow (pride). The other we did without knowing (ignorance). It's taking full accountability with God so it is not a chain around our neck.
matt w.
Matt,
You said
Jesus fed the 5000 knowing that a lot of them were there, not for the right reasons (but) he still ran his program. :-)
I think it is revealing that you said that Jesus ran his program. I don't believe at all that is what he did. In fact, I think these types of statements reveal a business-like, instead of God-centered, approach to church which is exactly why focusing on the cool and cutting edge is dangerous.
Jesus listened to the Father and his desires and moved as His Father desired. While asking do we throw out the programs is a legitimate question, I believe it to be the wrong type of question. Instead of trying to find hard and fast answer that always work; that is, living in the business model of church, we need to live in a dynamic relationship with the Father.
This type of relationship requires us to use our gifts to the fullest because the Father invites us to pursue him and in doing so utilize that which He has given us. To focus on this by making my gift into a program removes the reliance on God. That is not to say that programs are not necessary. The early church demonstrated this with Steven and the others chosen to minister to the widows. However, a problem arises when we focus on the form of the program instead of focusing on the Father's heart for the people.
While being cool and cutting edge is nice--trust me I'm young and love cool and cutting edge, that is not what we must do. That doesn't mean that we don't "appeal" to our audience in any way; for example, see Paul in the Areopagus (sp?), but Paul didn't then set up a program to teach about the Unknown God every week.
Our goal is to grow closer to the Father as we bring others alongside with us. While programs are a tool to allow us to do this efficiently, they are that only a tool.
Hi Justin,
Well I think we are on the same page. I just feel as they say "we threw away the baby with the bath water" Like I said there needs to be checks put in place to help hold people accountable. My comment on asking God to take us by the hand is meaning to submit to his will during any event, program, etc. I also stated that programs dont fix people...God does. They are just a way to reach the hurting hungry and lost.
We are in a time and place where our lives..our kids lives are so bombared with stuff to fill up there time it's insane. I can't speak for what happened on a day to day basis 2000 years ago..but I do see what we deal with today. I can watch a young adult play xbox, listen to his ipod in one ear, text a friend and surf youtube at the same time. Not speaking for anyone else but myself...I will use any and all efforts to bring glory to God by using what we have in todays world. If we are to reach into the lives of the people then we must examine the needs of the people..letting God lead us. People are hungry for something to fill thier hole. I also stated the message cant be drowned out by the "fluff". But the message has to be presented in a way that our generation will relate.
As for revealing...someday we should sit and talk because one word "program" does not difine who or what my thoughts are. If I offended you by using that word I am sorry. We are all in this together. We are all responsible to go and tell the good news.
thanks,
matt w.
Good conversation...
Let me clarify...I never said we should not have any programs. In reality, I am personally involved with a number of differant programs. My question had to do with our efforts to be cool, cutting edge instead of seeking God.
I am convinced that we are far too in love with programs. This conversation illustrates that fact.
If kids are too busy today, another activity will not help them. Bev and I have had some fairly intense relationships with several teenagers lately. We offer them no cool program or activity. We simply love and value them, respecting them as people. We learn from them, they learn from us. Our interaction can be intense at times. They want to know if we care. However our goal is not to have a great ministry, our desire is to see Christ formed in them.
I do know experientially that it is much easier to run a program than it is to interact deeply with people. However, do not misread me that I am opposed to all programs.
Matt,
I feel I should further explain myself here.
By no means was I attempting to set myself up as superior you to with my revealing comment. Neither was I offended by what you said. I do, however, strongly disagree with your statement that "one word 'program' does not define who or what my thoughts are." It is the choice of words such as these, made without much thought that reveal the paradigm under which we operate.
This is not an attack on you but rather a commentary on how focused the Church, worldwide, seems to have focused on programs over the hearts of those in the communities. That is not to say that there are not exceptions to this trend, but the Church especially the American Church has bought into this hook, line, and sinker.
For example, my anti-establishment feelings for much of my life were most definitely shaped by this focus. However, as God is shaking these beliefs, there seem to be two responses. Either we cling even more strongly to our tradition of programs or we throw them out completely.
I and the original post are trying to suggest a third way which transcends this. That is, programs are immaterial. To focus on them is completely unnecessary. As I said before, we must live in a dynamic relationship with God. Here, I use dynamic as a biologist would apply that word. That is, our relationship must be
(courtesy of dictionary.reference.com, the second set of definitions)
characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress.
Once we shift our view in such a way, we also must view the church as a living being just as Paul writes of the human body. In the human body we have structure, this is true; however, this structure is constantly changing its makeup.
In this view programs occur organically, that is naturally as needed, meet their goals, and then "die". We do not hold onto these programs. The danger is evidenced by the children of Israel, who held onto the cast of the snake Moses built for them, only to have it become an idol much later.
My point is that the main problem in questioning what do we do with programs is legitimate in a business, program-centered view of church; however, this is not a healthy view. Our questions especially as leaders instead should be as follows:
1. What is God doing in the lives of those I have been called to serve?
2. How do I get them to a place where they can follow their dream?
If part of the answer to the second question is a program that is necessary for a time, then most certainly use a program. However, the questions over programs should only come up after I have answered the first two above. This is actually quite an important distinction.
Matt,
To continue was I was saying above
Also, note that I didn't put a question above about accountability. While accountability is important, this type of question is once again the wrong type of question to be asking. This question is often used by leaders to keep those they serve close and under them, in short this question is often used to control the uncontrollable. Far too much damage has been done cloaking our concerns in the mantle of Godliness. We must follow the example of the Father and allow his children to mature; hopefully, without us. We want people to grow to where they have their own dynamic relationship to the Father. If God has given them a dream, we must allow them to follow it. Now, the obvious counterbalance is that yes people need to be gathering together and that should be where the accountability will come. However, to impose that upon those we serve is a great injustice that often results in greater bondage not greater freedom. Again, I stress accountability is important. However, this idea is often used because we do not like what another has done and seek to control them instead of going to the Father first.
I hope that I have made myself more clear. I have no enmity towards you; rather, I as the original post attempts to stress am uncomfortable with a program-centered style of church because in doing so we forget or take for granted those that we are to serve.
-Justin
I know I am coming in on the end of this and the subject is probably closed by now, but I love Justin's reference to the cast of the snake that Moses made and later became an idol. I believe that programs need to spring up for their purpose and die when no longer useful. We need to "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the constant renewing of our minds" Romans 12:2 Which means that we should be constantly looking at the needs of the body and adjusting ourselves and programs to those needs, not focusing on what programs "the world" says we need to have to be successful. That's when our mindset is aligned. If a person comes to a member with a need though and that person's first response is to shuffle them into some program instead of walking with them, then we're missing the point. We are no longer submitting to each other. We are no longer confident that the same Spirit working in these programs is working through us individually. That's when we can see programs are taking over. But by all means use your talents and gifts to the absolute fullest. They were given to you for a reason! Even if it ministers to only one person you have no idea what God intends do from there! Matt I encourage you that the same Spirit working in "the programs" is working through your talents to minister to individuals in your life right now. They have become your God led "program," don't overlook them because just because it doesn't have a title.
Post a Comment